N: Nanako Nakajima
Today is August 8th, 2023. I am here together with Professor Gabriele Brandstetter at her office in the Free University of Berlin. And today we will talk about dance and dramaturgy across German-speaking cultures. Thank you very much for hosting me.

B: Gabriele Brandstetter
Thank you very much. I'm honored.

N: I would first like to ask you some specific questions because you are an expert in dance studies in the German-speaking world. I'm curious about all these discussions about dance dramaturgy at present. And not alone in Japanese, or English, or German, but there's a kind of historical moment that we're experiencing where everybody is talking about dramaturgy in dance.

Raimund Hoghe and Pina Bausch

The first question concerns Raimund Hoghe and Pina Bausch, because Raimund Hoghe is considered the first dance dramaturg in the history of the performing arts. Dramaturg Katalin Trencsényi has mentioned how that long tradition of dramaturgy in Germany helped designate a name or a title for Hoghe's role in 1979. What do you think about that notion of dance dramaturgy beginning with Raimund Hoghe? What was so special about the collaboration between Bausch and Hoghe in terms of dance dramaturgy?

B: I don`t think that we can pin down an exact date for “the first time or situation” of dance dramaturgy. And yet, I could agree with the importance of positioning the dance dramaturg Raimund Hoghe working with Pina Bausch. We could ask: why did dramaturgy only come rather late to the dance world? Because dramaturgy in theatre already had a long tradition in Germany. I would put the question this way: what was Raimund Hoghe’s concept of dramaturgy and how did it link with Pina Bausch’s dance company? It strikes me that there was the practice of double transmission. Firstly, Hoghe was working as a dramaturg so as to accompany the rehearsal processes; looking at the various sequences which the company had been developing with Pina in the process of creating a piece. And, on the other hand, there was always the question of how to recall and trigger scenes which come from such a rehearsal process. So Hoghe was working both in writing and documenting, just like an archivist would, creating a living archive, by reflecting and rethinking what had happened the day or the week before. Perhaps, this is the idea and practice of in-group-transmission— because Hoghe’s work essentially honed in on the production process. He worked together with the dancers, with Pina Bausch, with stage directors, and all those involved in the production process.

And then there's another part of this double transmission, which not only operates on a micro-level within the company, but also reflects on this process as seen from an outside perspective; trying to take a more critical view, and then to clarify the material, the ideas and the working process. This operates more on a macro-level, which is already part of the composition. Thus, the dramaturg supports this process of composition. It is well known that Pina Bausch was constantly working until the very last minute before the premiere. And even after its first performance the “piece” was not yet “finished” but still in the process of development. Even the title for the piece sometimes came after the premiere. Hoghe was involved in this “work in progress” —and quite often stimulated it with his own ideas and comments.

Dance Dramaturgy / Dramaturgs in Germany

N: That these two sides of his personality ultimately led him to his work as a dramaturg makes so much sense to me. His initial interest in dance and his career as a journalist drove him to see dance and work with it. It's almost as if he institutionalized the practice of dance dramaturg, using his personality and talents. You mentioned how after the Second World War, Hoghe also reflected on language. My second question concerns the function of dance dramaturgy and dramaturgs in the performing arts in Germany. In the field of theatre dramaturgs, one always goes back to the Hamburg National Theater during Gotthold Ephraim Lessing's time, a period which vitalized German drama and theater to establish national standards. In the field of dance, Pina Bausch is said to have emancipated and redefined dance, blurring the boundaries between dance, performance, and post-dramatic theater. Is there any specific reason why the system of dance dramaturgy and dance dramaturgs in Germany is tied to the performing arts?

B: I think it is important to connect dramaturgy to the history of the 18th century, because the idea of dramaturgy took root at that time. Lessing established it with his writings on theater and drama; one was meant to think of dramaturgy as an idea for a national theatre to be performed and written in German, available for actors speaking in German. This, in turn, was meant to establish theater as a national idea of drama, for until then it had been highly influenced by French, Italian, and English— namely the Shakespearean tradition— theatre; and of course the Greek tradition. And yet, there was no such thing as a “national theater” in Germany based in the nation’s capital – as was the case with Paris in France. At that time, Germany was still divided into multiple little states and kingdoms, and small city states, each with their own theater. So, it became clear to Lessing, as a person of the Age of Enlightenment, that the idea of dramaturgy was about how theater should be a place both for education and entertainment in an accessible way for everyone. So, it's a complex concept of dramaturgy. If we look at what has happened ever since, we can see that it is not what happens on the national level, but rather on the local level that is of interest. Theatre in Germany is structured in such a way on an institutional level that every small city has its own theater, its own opera and ballet.

Given such a regional-based system, which is more local than national, the whole idea of opera and ballet, as well as the idea of the dance dramaturgs derives from that. With the onset of modern times, these local institutions wanted to have their very own modern or postmodern or contemporary dance as part of their theatre. On the other hand, ever since the time of modernity, avantgarde, and postmodern theatre there has been the so-called free scene. And within this free scene there's an even greater desire and probably even a need to have a dramaturg who acts as a unifying factor between the rotating dancers/performers and the project-based choreographic processes which might be in place on a short-term basis for a year or so. This means that the project has to be realized within that short timeframe. Thus the dramaturg is that kind of person who is intermittently involved in all the in-between constellations and also helps to keep both an empathetic and critical eye on the process.

This critical mirroring and also the fact of being able to view the production from a distance or “apart” is of the utmost importance. The dramaturg is the audience’s “first eye.” He or she looks like any member of the audience, and can offer feedback or recommendations as to how to change the structure of a given piece. This is what I mean by a kind of a double-view.

N: You also mention how the effect of dramaturgy, which is really wonderful, enriches commentary on any given piece. This leads us to the question of theory and practice.

Theory and Practice

N: Dance dramaturgy is often described as making sense of movement. Dance dramaturgs set out to analyze the performance during the rehearsal process in order to make sense of the choreographic movement. You already mentioned this intermingling factor and the dramaturg’s critical eye, where theory and practice meet. As a theoretical expert in dance, what kind of theoretical discourse do you think is applicable to choreographic sequences? And, conversely, in terms of interweaving between theoretical research and practical process, what kind of movement sequence is applicable to dance theory. Some dramaturgs are equipped to theorize about choreographic movement. The theatrical systems you have explained as the historical background are one thing, but these theoretical issues are quite another.

B: Let me answer your last question first. What kind of movement sequence is applicable to dance theory? I think that is a question with no universal or general solution. Still, it remains a very important one: How does theory relate to practice? The dramaturg is the person in-between the theoretical and the practical field: they have to be able to analyze the structure of composition in terms of theory. And at the same time they have to understand and translate the whole complex of practice. Practice not only involves rehearsing any given piece, but also of warming up and training are all part of the multiple practices involved in dance.

There is a theoretical question behind dancing-practice: how does a dancer’s training-background impact the production process? That's something which a good dramaturg can see and make fruitful—and that is theory linked in some way to practice. But on another level it means to reconnect to other theoretical discourses, such as gender, queering, decolonizing or dis/abled bodies. It could also be that it is more about media discourse, movement techniques, cultural traditions, specific movements or techniques in dance.

Questions could also turn to theories of space and territory or territorial association, which might be connected with ecological issues. How does everyone relate and connect to the environment and with what level of awareness about our living conditions and those of other species? It's another theoretical field which relates to the practice of moving and performing.

There are so many different possibilities. That's the challenge and also, I would say, the most interesting part of what the dramaturg can do: to understand these challenges and then choose the most interesting theory in relation to the practice. I mean this in an experimental way! It is not about confirming what's already there, but rather to push or even complicate our habitual understanding, so that the dancers really discover a new territory for themselves. This is even important in terms of the dramaturg’s ethical task. The dramaturg is a person who can also introduce new levels or ideas in terms of what is ethical and is not only concerned with the aesthetic aspects.

Collective Working Process

N: I see. That's the political dimension of dramaturgy, and what to do with our understanding of reality. That's the fun side to theory. Shall we go back to movement and collective work processes and the history of postmodern dance?

While discourse on dance dramaturgy goes all the way back to the ancient history of various dance cultures, some commentators have argued that the role of the dance dramaturg emerged simultaneously in Europe and America, with Pina Bausch in the form of post-dramatic theater and Cunningham/Cage and the Judsons as postmodern dance. Do you think that their collective way of working or their specific use of improvisational methods was linked to the birth of the dance dramaturg?

B: I think that's an interesting coincidence, which you may even have found in your research on dance with postmodernism in the USA, and with Pina Bausch. The collective working process was so important from the very outset, and they couldn't have got to where they got without it. Nonetheless, they differed in many respects. Merce Cunningham and John Cage had other ways of collaborating with their dancers than Pina Bausch did with hers in her company. But perhaps that was the trigger point for a dramaturg, because if you look at how Cunningham worked, he collaborated with David Vaughan whose approach was quite different from those dramaturgs who worked alongside Pina Bausch. Vaughan was a kind of archivist, someone who created an archive of this unique work and collaboration, for instance, between these two exceptional artists, Cage and Cunningham. And then all these artists from other fields such as Robert Rauschenberg or Jasper Johns, or musicians like Morton Feldman worked together, all while remaining autonomous. The autonomy of their collaboration not only meant that they came up with their own ideas and shared them, but also brought this together only on stage—a very interesting and novel idea for that time.

A dramaturg's work was not a part of this creative process, yet they were important for re-creating the performances. Vaughan collected materials, pictures, documents and musical scores in a bid to recreate parts of the solos or whole pieces. That's a kind of long-term effect of a dramaturgy—which was novel in the collective process.

In Pina Bausch’s collaboration with Raimund Hoghe something new arose: the dramaturg assumed a third position within the production process —a third position in relation to the director. And with Bausch the dramaturg worked to champion ideas, to take an experimental approach, and to give a language to physical processes. So, it's sort of a third position in terms of translation or transmission. For in addition to the dramaturg’s task of accompanying rehearsals and, as we said, to serve as a critical eye, they also had to create a meta-discourse. And this means working with memory, as Hoghe did. He subsequently wrote two books about his work with Pina and how she worked. Hoghe, in his role as dramaturg, incorporated a kind of a “shifter,” a trickster into the process of developing a piece, and in his way of inspiring and transmitting, as well as promoting memory like a “spectre”: the ghost or the spirit in the production. It's also very interesting that the dramaturg is part of this collective work, but yet they will not be mentioned, for instance as a co-author. The dramaturg is a kind of ephemeral in-between person in the production – there, and yet not there at the same time.

Dance Dramaturgy and Film

N: I suppose that as dramaturgs we play these roles of shifter, transmitter, and spectre, too. Thank you for explaining the archivist’s role. This aspect of the dramaturgs’ role should be mentioned more in history and historical studies, for many scholars of dramaturgs would skip this part. It also has to do with artistic practice. And of course it's not just about creating the piece, but also the form of editing used, which is similar to film montage. Pina Bausch's way of editing dance scenes has been described as akin to the montage technique used in film. Similarly, Yvonne Rainer, who is recognized as a filmmaker, adapts her dancemaking to her filmmaking and vice versa. So, her dance is transformed into film. Rainer is willing to return to her past and allow her past to return to her. In other words, the same material is used over and again in her film work, and which has reappeared in Rainer’s recent dance work. In my opinion, this crossover between dance and film was to open up a new field of dance dramaturgy for both Pina Bausch and Yvonne Rainer. Would you agree?

B: Yes I do, and I think it's another aspect of this very complex interrelationship between the arts and the question of collaboration: who plays which role in it? I have always been interested in the beginning of the developing relationship between film and dance, because it's a kind of parallel ascent of the two great art forms dealing with movement at the beginning of the 20th century, which saw the beginning of film both as an art form and as a medium. And dance was also freeing itself from a tradition which had been too codified. Dance around 1900 was beginning to change its approach to movement and started embracing new ideas in this regard. Dance and film were two of the main art forms at the beginning 20th century, under the signature of movement. We have a lot of literature about this age. It started with Loie Fuller, who made a film and was herself a dancer; this evolution was a technical revolution as well, working with lighting and fluid movement. At that juncture, cuts, collage, and montage as filmic structures were introduced into dance. Pina Bausch and Yvonne Rainer are like those who took this heritage from the avant-garde and brought it into the postmodern idea, but with a different concept of the political in dance.

I would say it is a dialogue or an exchange between two artforms, film and dance. And this is connected with a statement about gender, about what the human body can do. Film offers other possibilities to show how a body in dance can do in relation to space or light. In a film you can simply vanish, whereas on stage you always have to exit the stage.

Yvonne Rainer ventures into film and then comes back to dance. And then she does both with a little ironic gesture. It is a “Pink Panther” accompanying “Apollo” in Rainer’s paraphrase of Balanchine’s ballet “Apollo.” And so she kind of makes fun of it from a filmic point of view.

Pina Bausch was also interested in having a new and experimental eye on the art of dance from a cinematic viewpoint: in Die Klage der Kaiserin and other film projects, she embraced this medium. I'm glad filmmakers such as Wim Wenders were close to her.

Dance Dramaturgy in Dance Studies

N: I've been thinking about this cross-art influence between film and dance in relation to the birth of dance dramaturgs. I would now like to move on to the institutionalization in the future, which will be my final question for today. In German-speaking universities, there is a program called Applied Theater Studies. It seems that ever more dance studies programs at German universities are offering a course on dance dramaturgy. Dance studies are historical studies, covering all the discourse and knowledge you have already introduced to us. So what's the future of dance studies, especially in relation to dance dramaturgy?

B: Yes, there are theater studies programs, or even parts of a bachelor's or master's degree, dedicated to the study of dramaturgy. You can find it in theater programs or theater studies programs at several universities. I would not say, however, that it is the same with dance. There were several concept-meetings with dance dramaturgs in a bid to initiate such a program at universities. But it has not yet been established. Seminars are still more sequential or a once-off affair, and lack a coherent program. In dance, the discourse about curating is much more in the public programs than the theory and practice of dramaturgy. Over recent years, the idea of dramaturgy has been overwritten by the idea of curating. But talking about curating is different from talking about dramaturgy, because a curator is a kind of creator or a program-maker. He or she, for instance, does the work of organising a festival where economic pressures and institutional tasks feature prominently. Being a good curator means having a good overview of what's going on in the dance world and how to find purposeful themes. On the other hand, I think it is imperative to teach and to have programs for the education of dance dramaturgy. Still, I can see a problem, and maybe that's why it is not yet happening. There is an open question: how to teach a know-how in dramaturgy which changes with every project, with every task, and with every process in developing a performance? It is nearly impossible to generate a structure for a syllabus or for a master’s program because of these often fugitive and open processes involved in dramaturgical work. How can one teach intuition? Intuition is something which emerges after a long practical experience of “doing dramaturgy”! It is situational knowledge. And every dramaturg would perhaps decide somewhat differently or take another approach at any given rehearsal. Therefore I see dance dramaturgy as akin to “writing on water.” It is a highly ephemeral way of doing a work of practice, in terms of translating and transmitting the sensual and intellectual state of the art to different levels of reflection and writing. The dramaturg is like a spirit, because ultimately what they do leaves no visible traces at the end of the performance or, maybe... Yes! traces, because perhaps there might be books or program notes; but this action is not a piece. Nevertheless, the dramaturg builds up a whole embodied knowledge and experience of what to do and how to transpose decisions; and how to pass that on to future generations. Given the lack of an established format for studying dramaturgy, you would really need a lot of pedagogical knowledge in order to make a university program out of it—with a well-balanced idea of theory and practice. That means trying and finding your own way as a guiding principle. It's worth starting and rethinking.

N: It's good to know that we are moving forward, even though it's challenging. That's why it's not yet established in dance programs. Yet, it is possible to teach and learn dramaturgy despite all the challenges.

B: Yes. Perhaps that is your next task?

N: Thank you so much for all these wonderful insights. I greatly appreciate your brilliant input and for introducing me to fresh perspectives on the topic. Thank you very much.

B: Thank you very much for this interesting Q&A. I hope people will read it because we can put forward something for discussion.

This work was supported by JSPS KAKENHI Grant Number JP21K00131 and a Waseda University Grant for Special Research Projects (Project number: 2024C-334).